New Delhi: Minutes after CNN-IBN telecast the statements of Surinder Singh, a Sikh priest who claims to have witnessed Congress leader Jagdish Tytler inciting a mob during the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Tytler rubbished the statements.
In an exclusive chat with CNN-IBN Editor-in-Chief Rajdeep Sardesai, Tytler said he had proof to negate Surinder Singh's statements.
Tytler claimed he was in possession of Doordarshan CDs that reportedly showed him near Indira Gandhi's dead body through the hours riots took place.
On a CNN-IBN special show conducted by Suhasini Haidar, Tytler also faced questions from H S Phoolka, the counsel for the '84 riot victims. The Congress leader said the timing of the appearance of the two witnesses reeks of a conspiracy against him.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You saw the statement Surinder Singh made on camera. I repeat what he said, "Tytler was instigating the mob saying 'Don't leave them, they have killed our mother.' What's your response?
Jagdish Tytler: He has also given an affidavit in Nanavati Commission saying he saw me at 9 o clock in morning. If you see the records when the session court trial took place, everybody said everything went wrong till 2 pm at that place.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying that what Surinder Singh has told us on camera is a lie? That he is changing his mind and that there's no question of you being there at the time uttering those words?
Jagdish Tytler: I just want to say that I have never been to that place and I have got the seven CDs of Doordarshan where I am with Indira Gandhi's body from 7 am to 3 pm. Everyone saw me.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Surinder Singh submitted his first eyewitness testimony before Nanavati Commission on January 12, 2002. At the end when commission finished it's hearing, it said there was credible evidence against Jagdish Tytler that needed to be investigated. So obviously Surinder Singh was being taken seriously. You are saying he is a liar?
Jagdish Tytler: I am not saying that. I am saying I have a proof that I was not there. I can give you the films just now. They are official DD films.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You claim you were there with Indira Gandhi's body?
Jagdish Tytler: I don't claim. I was there from 7 am.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But the bottomline is why should Surinder Singh say something like this?
Jagdish Tytler: After 21 years, this fellow comes and says all this. I don't understand this. There's someone behind this.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Who is behind it? Are you saying there are rivals within your party doing this? Are you saying these witnesses are only surfacing after you were given a clean chit by CBI last week?
Jagdish Tytler: I only want to know why this man did not go the sessions court trial in 1994. He did not go to any commission, he did not got to CBI when he was questioned.
Rajdeep Sardesai: He says he was frightened.
Jagdish Tytler: Frightened of whom?
Rajdeep Sardesai: Frightened of threats and pressures he was under. He says his life was under threat and he did not get the backing of the Delhi Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee. Therefore he turned a hostile witness.
Jagdish Tytler: It's all nonsense. He's talking rubbish. Can he name one or more Sikhs from the Gurudwara who can corroborate his statements? There must be other people too.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So you are saying that the granthi, who is on a hidden camera, is not speaking the truth. At no stage did you make that statement.
Jagdish Tytler: I was not there.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And despite that the Nanavati Commission said there was credible evidence? So you say the Commission is also lying?
Jagdish Tytler: Nanavati Commission only commented on his statement.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Surinder Singh says he turned hostile due to pressures. He claims he was abducted thrice, that police was hand-in-glove with powerful people.
Jagdish Tytler: I have a tape that shows I am not there. So the whole thing becomes a lie.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Why did you not submit the tape to CBI?
Jagdish Tytler: I did submit to CBI and the man himself has gone and said he did not see me. He got papers in his hand, legally.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So are you saying there was no question of pressure or threats?
Jagdish Tytler: The question does not arise. Inquiry must be done and I think there's a conspiracy. After 21 years the man comes and makes a statement like, 'Doosri sarkar aayegi main fir badal jaaoonga (I will change again when Government changes)' What kind of a witness is he?
Phoolka reacted to Tytler's claims. "He was given dates to testify but he did not produce the tapes. Had he produced the tapes in front of Nanavati Commission, it would have considered it. If he is right, that would have been the end of it. He chose not to produce it."
Tytler responded by saying the clippings were part of a Doordarshan show recorded in 1984 and that he couldn't have produced it immediately.
Phoolka, however, maintained Tytler could have asked the court to summon DD on the tapes. "But Mr Tytler did not do this. I think there is something wrong there," he said.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But why did Surinder Singh change his statement in affidavit, denying he had seen Tytler. Now he has come on CNN-IBN making these dramatic statements. How do you explain the changing testimony of a key witness?
Phoolka: Surinder Singh has explained it himself. There's nothing for me to say. Let me tell you. Surinder Singh was a witness but police never produced him in the court. The sequence is very clear. I want to thank CNN-IBN for exposing it. It's great.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Tytler respond to this. Mr Phoolka says the Delhi Police did not react because they were working under your instruction. Ironically today, we have a Sikh Prime Minister from the same regime.
Jagdish Tytler: My point is that in that Gurudwara, Surinder Singh was not the only person. There were hundreds of others, too. Can he bring another couple of witnesses to say I was there?
Phoolka: Not everybody would have seen it. They were all running to save their lives.
Jagdish Tytler: Let me tell you there is no mosque near the Gurudwara. There's one 100 metre away from it. I was never on the street.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So you are denying what Justice Nanavati says, that there's credible evidence against you?
Jagdish Tytler: Completely. I was not there. I am telling you again and again. I cannot be at two places at the same time.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Why did you not produce the tapes earlier?
Jagdish Tytler: I am telling you I gave them to CBI. Probably he went to CBI and told the agency in the affidavit that he hadn't seen me.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Why would Justice Nanavati say there was credible evidence against him?
Jagdish Tytler: That was because of Surinder Singh's affidavit.
Suhasini Haidar: Mr Tytler, 3,000 people were killed in Delhi in those riots. Very few of them came out to speak. Is that not a testimony enough of the fear?
Jagdish Tytler: Let it be Surinder Singh's words against my tapes proving I was present somewhere else. Let the court decide what the truth is.
Ved Marwah who headed the first enquiry into the riots joined in the debate.
Suhasini Haidar: Does anything that Surinder Singh says surprise you?
Ved Marwah: It's very unfortunate that the proceedings have gone on for 23 years and if the witnesses are now changing their testimony, it's because the whole thing has dragged on for so many years. When I was called to Delhi Police – after the riots were over – I was given three months. But before I could complete it, I was asked to stop. Naturally, I couldn't proceed with it despite doing a lot of work. Commenting on Surinder Singh's or Tytler's statement is something that the investigative agencies must do.
Suhasini Haidar: But investigative agencies have failed and witnesses have retracted. Even Surinder Singh says he saw six policemen with the mob. How is the ordinary person expected to face up to such power?
Ved Marwah: That's true. If people can be burnt alive on Delhi roads, it doesn't speak too well of Delhi Police. That's what I was going to do if I was allowed to proceed with my inquiry. I had collected all records that did not put the police in very good light.
Suhasini Haidar: Mr Phoolka, is there any evidence you have that can nail Mr Tytler?
Phoolka: Full opportunity was given to Tytler. But he did not produce the CDs. So it proves he wasn't there (at Indira Gandhi's funeral). If he was, he would have placed it on record before Nanavati Commission.
Jagdish Tytler: I want to ask Mr Phoolka one question: there were 200 affidavits filed over that incident. Do any of them mention my name? Why me?
Suhasini Haidar: It's interesting you should say that. Surinder's testimony comes in the same week as Jasbir Singh's.
Jagdish Tytler: That's not his testimony. Jasbir's is a different case.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you suggesting, Mr Tytler, that it's all a conspiracy?
Jagdish Tytler: It's all a conspiracy.
Rajdeep Sardesai: By a section of Congress leadership?
Jagdish Tytler: I would not say that.
Rajdeep Sardesai: By your political rivals?
Jagdish Tytler: Anyone.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Is it people who wouldn't want you to come back to power?
Jagdish Tytler: That's for police to find out. CBI must find out.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you ready for a situation that Surinder Singh goes to CBI with the statement he has made to CNN-IBN?
Jagdish Tytler: Oh yes. He should also prove his case by bringing in more people.
Suhasini Haidar: Surinder Singh and Jasbir Singh are not the only people who accuse you. The CDs you speak of were not produced before CBI and they may not be there at all now.
Jagdish Tytler: It's part of government record.
Suhasini Haidar: Do you have those CDs with you?
Jagdish Tytler: I have a copy I got officially. DD still has the record.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Will you submit the CDs?
Jagdish Tytler: If they ask me, 100 per cent I will.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Two days from now are Gujarat elections, Narendra Modi has been accused of many things. In a sense, does Congress have blood on its hands for 1984?
Jagdish Tytler: Not at all. It's for CBI and court to decide.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You don't see any parallels between 1984 and 2002?
Jagdish Tytler: Not at all. I don't want to comment on this. All I want to say is I was not there and it's all a made-up story. Police must investigate this.
Suhasini Haidar: Can we have a look at the CDs?
Jagdish Tytler: Of course, I will give it to Rajdeep Sardesai just now. I will give it to CBI. Get a lie-detector test done on me and on that man too.
Suhasini Haidar: Mr Phoolka, what happens next?
Phoolka: If he has the CDs and if he can prove he was at the cremation during those hours, that's the end of it. But if he was so sure, he should have submitted it before Nanavati Panel.
Jagdish Tytler: Mr Phoolka, will you listen to me? You are a lawyer. Surinder Singh says he saw me at 9 am. But at the sessions court trial, the man whose brother died said the mob came in at 2 pm.
Phoolka: These contradictions are for the court to see.
Suhasini: Gentlemen, hopefully this will come up in court, hopefully it will go through a commission of inquiry that will come through with some concrete answers. Mr Marwah, before we end, what you are seeing here, what you have seen here is the testimony of one man, one man who could not speak in front of commission of inquiry and one Congress leader who was implicated in the riots. But we know that many senior politicians were also implicated in the riots, we know at least 3,000 people were killed. Is this what it has finally has come down to, that 23 years later the entire police force cannot find anyone at the top more guilty?
Ved Marwah: I think it is very tragic that no conclusion has been made about who is guilty and who's not in 23 years. But the sad fact is that I was the inquiry officer and I was given three months to complete and that didn't happen. And for the last 23 years some Delhi police officers have been filing one civil suit after another against me for doing that inquiry. So you see our criminal justice system is in a very bad shape and if things go on as they are people will lose confidence.
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Some see things as they are and ask, Why?
I dream things that never were and ask, Why not?
Bobby Kennedy
ustice, a movement set up by 15 Sikh organizations in the United States, met recently at the Baba Makhan Shah Gurudwara in New York. Their objective is to ensure that those allegedly involved in killings during the 1984 anti-Sikhs riots are punished.
